Zeta II Reticuli, a weapons development facility?

@Gavin Singleton Very curious to reading your story regardless of the new info shed by Prometheus..sounds interesting! good read and good questions, the picture at the bottom of your post I wonder if it'll be in Covenant...I mean its flimed in a similar "islandy" landscape to me...the giger piece resembles a cove...a very dark bio mechanical cove at that...like a fortress?.. man i can't wait to get answers ether 

Gavin: I have also wondered about the egg silo structure because if we look at the Juggernaught then it seems that the egg silo looks too big to be a part of it - at least to me. Maybe we will have to imagine that the Juggernaught and the Engineer ship in Prometheus are two different models as far as the ships go but I still wonder how the Eggs got there.

What we do know is that the Xeno functions as a bio weapon or at least could have been made for that purpose.

The ship on LV-223 is a much different design to the LV-426 ship.  The Juggernaut is a lot bigger, rounder, and flatter.

I see no reason that the Derelict couldn't have a lower hold that was subsequently buried.  We'll never know unless it's seen off the ground, or otherwise mapped.

The juggernaut isn't bigger than the derelict.

Ridley has stated that the juggernaut from Prometheus is a brother ship to the derelict. Personally, I do not see a great deal of similarity between the derelict and the Prometheus juggernaut. The interior's look completely different to me. Like chalk and cheese. The latter being the cheese.

Me and (I think ) BigDave suggested that the Derelict may have been carrying some kind of giant container (the egg silo.) But on further consideration, I'm thinking that it is actually some sort of cave 

Juggernaut is 1000 ft in diameter (ie. wide). Derelict is 386 feet wide.  The Juggernaut interior look like the Derelict if the Derelict was built rather than the 'grown' look it has.

When viewing the egg silo (matte painted, wide angled scene from the picture above.) you can clearly see that this structure is huge and couldn't possibly be a part of the ship.

It still remains a mystery to this day and I'm thankfull of that. The fact that it was originally intended to be a separate structure (a pyramid, in O'Bannon's script) and the fact that FOX wanted to cut corners to save money, resulted in a very ambiguous scene which we are still debating about 37 years on.

FOX got lucky with this particular cutting of said corner! But eventually, with every subsequent cutting of corners, the franchise would inevitably yield sub standard offerings. 

Have you got those measurements from those books? All you have to do is LOOK at the derelict (you know, Ridley's intention was to make it look huge and he achieved said hugeness.) Just watch ALIEN and you will see how very huge it is. 

I know how huge it is - I measured it, and those measurements were subsequently adopted by Fox for the Blu-Ray menus.  It's just a lot smaller than the Juggernaut (measurements from the 'Art Of Prometheus' book).  And since the portion we're talking about is below ground - once again, we won't know if it's part of the ship, until it's above ground or mapped.

However, even with it's massive size, we are still forced to suspend our disbelief that the silo is a part of the derelict purely due the scale of the matte painting, with Kane displayed as a mere dot in a huge landscape which couldn't logically be the belly of the ship.

The egg silo does however have the same interior DESIGN as the pilot chamber, which suggests to the viewer that it was built by whomever built the derelict.

When the whole chamber is below ground, the only thing being suspended is Kane.

And yes, the same design and hole through the floor from the cockpit to the egg chamber suggests same structure.

Ok; can you answer the question of how a structure so obviously huge ended up buried under ground?

Same reason it was damaged when the Jordens find it in Aliens.  LV-426 is very windy and geologically active.  Lava flows, landslides, ash + time. If volcanic ash on Earth can bury houses in a matter of days or weeks - imagine what millennia could do.

Regardless of the size of the Juggernaut to the Derelict, the idea that the Reticuli system is a series of weapons development facilities is rather fascinating. This could, like you said Gavin could maintain that level of mystery while still expanding the story and it's questions.

I'm quite intrigued by this theory. It could work!

With respect S.M, it just seems like you are coming up with weak explanations to support your hypothesis.

You really think that a huge structure like the egg silo became buried because of an even weaker explination by Cameron as to why the beacon got switched off? 

They walk past a bunch of geysers on their way to the Derelict in Alien, meaning it's in a geologically active area.  Doesn't have to have anything to do with Cameron.

And considering the obvious differences in the design of the Derelict and Juggernaut as outlined above, I think it fits better than the alternate theory, where the ship is now inexplicably above ground, while the weapons facility is below - the opposite of LV-223.

Ridley Scott has always inferred and related that the egg chamber is the cargo hold of the derelict Juggernaut, yet the designer and creator of the derelict and the egg chamber H.R. Giger always saw them as separate entities and designed them as such.

Clearly as seen above the derelict was never designed with such a large cargo hold in mind. While one could argue that they would not do so in a scale miniature comparing the pilots room with the egg chamber beneath you can clearly see the vast differences in scale.

Even though Ridley Scott used his children to make the Space Jockey look bigger the pilots chamber is designed to be the center of the derelict, whereas the scale of the egg chamber dwarves Kane (two white dots on the right, pictured above). Comparing Kane in relation to the egg chamber and Kane, Dallas and Lambert entering the derelict (pictured below) an estimate, one would argue that the size of the egg chamber is at least five times the size of the derelict. comparing scales, the pilots chamber doesn't even cover the width of the egg chamber, and the egg chambers winding corridors don't even parallel the derelict above. 

It is clear from Giger's designs, shown in the movie that the egg chamber is a vast cathedral-like structure not intended to be part of the derelict. If we are to believe Ridley Scott, the majority of the craft would be buried in the ground; unearthed and in orbit it would look akin to Falcon carrying an Elephant in its claws. While it could be argued to be a container, the surrounding landscape upon which the derelict Juggernaut sit's would favor the chamber being a subterranean structure.

The Juggernaut on LV-223 is rounder and flatter than the craft on LV-426, but the designs are too similar to not be considered the same class of vessel. Maybe the LV-426 craft, much like its pilot became misshapen and warped over a prolonged period - a simple and viable suggestion to address the ships differences which IRL came about through "creative license". Think of the LV-223 Juggernaught as brand new, out of the factory, with the vessel on LV-426 being the bent out of shape.

They're obviously from the same culture but are way too different inside and out to be considered the same 'class' of vessel (assuming Engineers have such a thing).

And if one wants to bring the intent of the creators into it, the script (after the pyramid was cut) describes the chamber as a "cargo hold".

The Ships Measurements have always been a bit off compared to so called sizes...

I will try and this is just roughly to give the sizes...

Prometheus Jugernaught  300M Diameter

The Juggernaught is about 5.6X its Width as its Height and its Width is about the same as its Length and Diameter so the Height of the Juggernaught is about 54M in Height the Vaginal Openings are 8.5X Smaller than the ships Height and so 6.35M High so if we are talking Feet then.

Length/Width = 1000Ft approx

Height = 178Ft approx

Entrance Height = 21ft approx

When Shaw desends from one, it looks smaller however. Again this is not first Scale Mistake Ridley has made.

And so the Actual Entrance size total for the whole Vaginal Shape when compared to actual prop size is about 18ft tall

Alien Derelict

Do this in reverse..

Vaginal Opening is about 13.5ft Total Height, the Derelict is 6-6.5X Taller than those openings.  Thus a Speculated Derelict Height is about 82-86ft

Again the Derelicts Height to Width Ratio is similar to the Juggernaughts.   At about 5.5-5.6X

Thus the Derelict must have been on average 450-470 Ft Wide....

Now bare in mind actual Prometheus openings appear to be 18ft thus the height is about 153Ft and by that measurement the Width about 858Ft  Thats a 14% difference compared to the Specs.

If we apply same 14% to the Derelict then i would assume the Derelict was 510-530Ft Wide and 93ft to 98ft Tall

This are just speculative but i think suffice to say indeed it shows the Derelict was about half the size of the Juggernaught.

So i am not sure if there are any Official Figures, i have not had by Book yet as they ran out of stock from the supplier and im pondering the Special Addition.

But Prometheus have us Juggernaught Specs of 300M Width and thus height of say 55M to round it up.

I would say the Derelict was thus about 145M Wide and 25M High...

Yet had a much bigger Cargo Hold lol

So yes there is a difference Ridley said they are brothers, and Alien Engineers was trying to set up that it could even had been the same Ship.

But mistakes are made in movies, Ridley has got scale wrong a few times, but the movies have a few little flaws if we nit pick at them.

The idea was yes Derelict/Juggernaught same thing, which evolved to similar thing.... i always felt the Derelict looked a bit fatter and a bit smaller, but not to the scale i roughly worked out.

So they are similar but it does not have to mean the same but just a smaller version, that only had one Pilot and no other Crew compared to the Larger Juggernaughts.

As for the cargo hold, yes Ridley said the Derelict was a Bomber/Bio Weapon Cargo Ship and the Cargo was Eggs and got to the Pilot.... so the Egg Silo was part of the ship!

Which is why the Juggernaught has its Cargo Urns on board too. The oversight being the size of the Egg Silo, and how it cant fit in the Derelict?

But hey Dr Who has Time and Relative Dimension (Dimensional transcendentalism) so why not the Engineers to have some parts bigger on the inside than out? LOL

But we do have to remember that the Original Intentions and Shooting was that the Egg Silo was separate to the Derelict.  But due to budget they had to make us Assume it was part of the ship and hope we dont notice the difference.

The openings on both ships are quite different.  The Derelict's are lower down on the hull and largely featureless, while the Juggernauts are higher up and have a lot of detailing.

A way i explained this before would be if the Cargo Hold could be attached to the bottom of the craft much like this

From Thunderbird, but imagine this does not go inside but remains attached to the bottom and the Derelict releases the Cargo Hold onto a Surface, and disengages the Protective Myst Barrier.

This is how before i explained a way around it.  But then again the Cargo Hold would have been much bigger still.

Its just one of those movie mistakes.... which Ridleys comments all these years still does not add up, only in a way that i explained it could work... unless we go Dr Who Dimensional transcendentalism

The thing is Ridley had said the Derelict had a cargo of Eggs for a long time but his last comment on the Derelict sugested the Cargo Evolved.

And as we have never had the Space Jockey Story Told on Screen, they can change it and what they do with it can be CANNON while Ridleys long time comments then be decanonized.

"But we do have to remember that the Original Intentions and Shooting was that the Egg Silo was separate to the Derelict.  But due to budget they had to make us Assume it was part of the ship and hope we dont notice the difference."

The shooting script indicates otherwise.

Yes they are slightly different SM but its hard to judge with the Derelict as we cant quite see how much of the ship is buried.

The Derelict is also perched at a angle which makes it harder to judge. 

But regardless i think in General we have to Accept the Derelict is a Smaller, slightly different variant of the Juggernaught.

Maybe as a Example.... LOL

But yeah only near twice the size...

@SM

LOL .... yeah i was meaning as far as the Draft, and then Production.... thats when things changed.

So when i meant Shooting i meant thats what they had intended before shooting, that they was going to have these both seperate but then when shooting started /shooting script finished they had changed plans.

A lot people dont also realise similar things happened with Prometheus, we had Spaights draft, Production Started on a lot of stuff.... at the time Lindeloff was working on his re-write, this is when maybe Chest Busted Cryo Pods were already under production.

And Lindeloffs Draft is not exactly the same as what was Shot so yes a Shooting Draft came along after.

But my point was that the idea when Giger was working on the Props was for a separate Silo and at some point during Production and Prior to Shooting they had to make those changes.

Back to the Main Topic, and yes a seperate Silo could work, they could explain it that way because on Screen we have no real confirmation to say the Egg Chamber was the Cargo.... its highly hinted and Prometheus adds more to this due to Juggernaught and its Cargo.

But they could have LV-426 as a Storage Facility and maybe this is where what ever they are working on is left to Evolve, like some kind of incubation Hold.

The Derelict could have been dropping off or picking up the Cargo and tried to take off but then hardly rose off the ground before the Accident (Chest Busting) this would add the Questions as far as time period to how the Space Jockey got infected..

But maybe he could have been infected and gone into Cryo Sleep but was then awoken, like in Spaights draft.. (not by Humans though).  But infected all the same, as we really have to ponder the same Questions with the Chest Busted Prometheus Juggernaught Engineers.

But as far as LV-426 being more than just a baron moon the Derelict only managed to get as far as, this could work.. there is no Proof to support it but then there is not concrete on screen proof to rule it out as a possibility to be explored in future.

@BD I do not make notes of where I pick up things but I recently listened to the Lindelof/Spaihts commentary and I am sure Jon said in his draft that Shaw was inveigled into the Juggernaut by David whose hold is full of eggs and she is faced hugged and then some how gets back to the Med Pod to extract the infant A L I E N and stays in

the Med Pod and watches the A L I E N grow.

So Eggs in Juggernaut building on Ridleys view that the Egg chamber was in the Juggernaut (the deadly cargo of the bomber). 

I only raise this because as a "modern" rather than a "science" scholar at school I relate to story and intent rather than the physical anomaly.

That the Jockey's across the movies for me are different sizes is about artistic licence. That the derelict/juggernaut are not the same scale is not important. The intent in the story telling is for us to make the link and in LIndelof's case give ourselves permission to speculate and fill in the gaps. For me the issue of where the eggs where is about story and the story of A L I E N does not convey any sense of a separate temple or building whatever the illogicality of the physical spaces. For me the only important matter is whether in story telling terms Ridders will contextualise where the Juggernaut and Jockey fit in to his developing pore equal Mythos.  

Are these weapons? or world shaping technology? If Prometheus had started with them conquering a alien civilization then...Yes, I'd say the canisters are weapons....but they started different.

Who are the Elders/Engineers fighting? Earth? 

Why do  they need weapons?

Maybe they need armies of xeno's to fight the really nasty aliens.

Fox really needs to nail down a direction for this series.

Yes Michelle i am not sure if i mentioned it above or not?  But i was going to touch upon just as you said...

Regardless of size difference, and cargo (Eggs/Urns) they had intended to lead us to and show us that the Egg Cargo Hold was a part of the Derelict, thats the plan the idea and we can nit pick at the size differences and how the hold would not fit.

But the movie was and Ridley too trying to suggest YES the Derelict had a Cargo of Eggs.

As you pointed out Spaights draft was trying to tease (but does not have to be as fact) that the Juggernaught in his draft was the Derelict but this is not a fact.

But the intended fact, was that they are the same kind of Ship and they both had a Cargo hold of Eggs (as far as Spaights Draft)

I am not sure if Ridley will ever change or explain the Derelict and Egg Chambers Size, we would just have to accept that its part of the ship.

On the topic of the egg silo on LV-426...

Ridley Scott, be him the director and one of the fathers of this franchise, is one of the most unreliable directors when it comes to consistency and continuity. For years the Space Jockey was the long-dead remains of a giant elephantine alien creature, then come 2012 we are told instead it is a tall Apollonian in a biomechanical flight suit. Then there is the Space Jockey scene in which he first used his kids in space suits to make the pilot look around 20 feet in height, but then used the cast in the remaining shots, which then made the pilot look around 10 feet in height. And let's not forget how many different cuts and editions there are of Bladerunner. This is also the guy who thought it a good idea to have the Alien kill Ripley and send a voice message, in English, back to Earth. So when it comes to what Ridley may have or may not have said, I'll instead refer to the only true evidence, which is that of which we see on screen.

Earlier replies have suggested that the Derelict on LV-426 is half the size of the Juggernaut on LV-223, yet according to both Wikia's Alien Anthology and Xenopedia, both of the vessels are actually the same size - 173.4 meters or 571.8 feet. But regardless, we can use, as said, on screen evidence...

The set for famous Space Jockey scene in Alien (pictured above top) and the set for the egg chamber (pictured above bottom) are in actuality the same set, so when comparing the size of the Jockey room and the egg silo complete with matte painting we can ascertain that the egg silo is as tall if not taller than the Jockey room. As pictured below the Jockey room in Juggernaut, and thus by extension in the Derelict also makes up the central section of the craft.

Were the plausibility of the egg silo being part of the Derelict falls apart is the width, and shape of the aforementioned silo. comparing the matte painting image of the egg silo to that of the Jockey room, the silo is too wide and too long to correspond as being part of the derelict - the egg silo quite simply dwarves the Derelict by comparison. While it has been argued that the derelict may have carried the egg silo like a cargo container, in this instance it would be like a Chinook carrying a cargo freighter full of cargo containers.

From the evidence shown on screen the egg silo, in my opinion, has to be a facility buried on the surface of LV-426. But why is the Derelict sat atop of this facility and why does the technology of the egg silo and the Derelict on LV-426 differ to that on of the Pyramid and Juggernaut on LV-223?

I believe that the most viable possibility is that the Derelict landed and docked with the facility on LV-426 for reasons unknown and the pilot fell foul to one of the eggs stored within.

As for the differences in technology, I think there are two possibilities. The first possibility is that Engineer technology including the Juggernauts start off as purely mechanical, becoming biomechanical over a period of time, with the facility on LV-426 being much older than that on LV-223. The second possibility is that silo, craft, and pilot on LV-426 are not Engineer, but was discovered by the Engineers who then used LV-223 (pictured above) to replicate the technology as best they could and weaponize the contents of the eggs discovered within the silo.

If we accept the latter possibility, thus inferring that the Space Jockey is not an Engineer, then rather than an elephantine alien as seen in the Dark Horse comics, believe a combination of C'thulu and the following fan art (by DeviantArt's Bloommer) could be what these ancient aliens once looked like...

Yes what you say would make some sense...

it really has been a scale problem that has caused many conflicts, Space Jockey supposed (26ft) which in one shot looked 21ft and other 15ft tops.....

Engineers who are supposed to be 15ft (to correlate to the Space Jockey) who was then revised to appear as 10ft suited as they realized they could not pull off 15ft ones as planned within the means of Technology Ridley Scot wished to use... (not a fan of CGI)  but in fact the illusion our nearly 7.5ft suited Engineers gave was only about 8ft tall... the main problem the unsuited Engineer who only appeared to be no more than 8 feet tall.... by using camera angles etc.

Then we had the Egg Silo that indeed is far to big for the Derelict unless it shares similar Tech to what Dr Whos Tardis has...

Then yes the Juggernaught and Derelict are different sizes.... the concept work suggests the Juggernaught is 1000ft wide.... i actually measured it approximately and i cant remember my results exactly but it came in at about 940Ft Mark....  where as the Derelict was just over half the size.

The calculations based on measurements of the Oval, Vaginal Openings on both ships compared to the Human Crew interaction and shots on set... which would give a margin of error but still showed the Derelict was just over half the size.

But we as viewers are never supposed to look into these scale details....  we was supposed to for all intensive purposes assume the Derelict and Juggernaught are very related and maybe even same ships... and that the cargo holds are on the ships and the Engineers and Space Jockeys are the same.

Its a case of do they Fox/Ridley remain to keep these as such that the most viewers would be unaware of.... or do they try and changed the PLOT and Ideas to suit those who have studied and found inconsistencies?