IMMORTALITY

When looking at IMMORTALITY the Prequels seem to Tackle this on Multiple Levels...

*We have the Spiritual After-Life of Faith, which was touched upon a bit through Dr Shaw (inc Flash Backs) a Immortality that is a Reward to those who Appease their Makers.

*We have Technological/Medical Advancements that could Enhance the Life Expectancy of Person, and we can assume maybe the Engineers had achieved some Great Advancements like this...  This seemed to be the Indication with Jon Spaights Drafts.

*We have Synthetics like David who have a kind of Immortality, as with A.I.  And we can assume as a Machine that his SOUL can be Stored and Transferred to a NEW Body if his Old Body Fails... this would in essence make David kind of Pseudo Immortal.

However there are other ways to be Immortalized which we see to a degree in the Prequels.

*Arts and Creation can leave a Legacy, people such as Mozart and Elvis are Immortalized via their Music, just as a Picasso and Da Vinci via there Art. 

*Fame can also Immortalize people for a Little While at least, which includes Well Known Musicians, and Actors and Sports Professionals.

*Inventors and Pioneers via their Discovers, Creations and Works.

*Kings, Tyrants and Political Figures can also leave a Lasting Legacy, and be Remembered in the History Books sometimes for Good and sometimes for Bad.

For these kinds of People they can be Immortalized with Monuments, Paintings and other Records.

The Ozymandias poem touches on these, by Virtue of showing that even a Great King with Monuments erected in their Name... will Eventually DIE and in Time all that remains of Such Monuments are Wrecks lost in the Desert Sands....   But ALAS none of these will Last FOREVER.

The Prologue of Alien Covenant we are witnessing Creation with David's Activation, but in this Room are many Creations, be it the Art (Nativity Painting), The Statue of David, the Bugatti Chair and Steinway Piano.  These all leave a Legacy of their Creators and Weylands has Achieved one of the Greatest Creations YET!

DAVID... as disused before A.I would have a kind of Immortality and if there was EVER a Time when a Human could TRANSCEND their Soul to A.I. (like in the Movie Transcendence) then this would be in effect a After-Life of Sorts... if you can Transfer this into a BODY be it a Synthetic or a Organic Body (see Movie The Sixth Day) then this would in effect be a kind of Immortality.

Would Weyland had attempted Similar?

Had the Engineers attempted Similar or Achieved such?

In Jon Spaights Pitch for a ALIEN Prequel he did a Paper that was ALIEN 01 The Master Narrative where he described the Engineers trying to Achieve Godhead in effect a attempt to Transcend past their Psychical Bodies into a another Realm/Pane of Existence which in essence is the Pursuit of a Alternative Existence a After-Life/Immortality if you would.   This HOWEVER was never touched upon in the Later Drafts or Movies.

If some Engineers had achieved this or came Close, then this would be the GIFT that Weyland would have hoped the Engineers had achieved and could GRANT him.   A more Closer Immortality would indeed come from the Ability to Transcend a Soul to a A.I that can be Uploaded to a New Body be that Organic, Synthetic or a Combination.

And FINALLY we come to the XENOMORPH!

We heard Ridley Scott suggest the Xenomorph would Regenerate and this is a Kind Of Immortality, it depends to what extent that it can Regenerate, and if its Soul/Memories can Live on.

Which brings me to RIPLEY 8 as we see from the Cloning of her what we have is a Hybrid that can Regenerate, that is Stronger, Faster than a Human and that has regained some Memories of Ellen Ripley.

You could say that Ripley 8 and David 8 are the Closest we have seen to IMMORTALITY in the Franchise.

Without the Xenomorph Merger of DNA then we would NOT have Ripley 8 and so we could see that the Xenomorph has some way to UNLOCK some kind of IMMORTALITY.

If this is the CASE then it would give better reason for WHY the Engineers would be conducting Experiments on the Xenomorph, well its Predecessors.  Could these Experiments had been a attempt at GODHEAD?

So in CLOSING... there is a Lot to do with Immortality in the Franchise and it would appear the Xenomorph (Predecessors) and A.I seem the most likely ROAD to Immortality.

Feel free to discus away from Context of the Franchise too, because indeed Genetic Engineering is a Path to Extending Life, the Advent of Advanced A.I could Herald a After-Life/Immortality if we achieve what was shown in the Movie Transcendence.  If we take Blade Runner and Cross that with The Sixth Day then we also have a kind of Immortality....

Can Science Achieved these things?  Time will Tell and WHO knows what we can expect in 100 Years, or a THOUSAND.

This topic is an excellent way to lay out some of the core concepts in the prequels BigDave.  I will attempt to discuss/debate the scope of what you cite above across multiple comments.

 

The Attempt to Manufacture Immortality

"Mr Weyland is surely more a Man of Science than Faith, even though he wanted a Believer on board the Prometheus, it would seem that FAITH in the After-Life is the Last Resort for Peter Weyland and he would rather NOT take such a Gamble."

True.  

In a similar fashion as to how one may choose a certain stock or mutual fund, to me, Peter Weyland included Dr. Shaw (with faith) to diversify his crew in regards to belief systems.

 

Why 8?: David 8, Ripley 8

The number 8 is revered across multiple cultures and personal belief systems.  8 itself is very similar to the infinity symbol if not believed to be identical, see below.  

"Eight is represented in “The Magic Star of Venus,” and by the Chaldeans as the 8-pointed Star of Venus. Amongst the Jews, 8 is the number of circumcision, because that ceremony took place on the eighth day.

In Christianity there are eight beatitudes: poverty of spirit; mourning; meekness; desire of righteousness; mercy; purity of heart; the peacemaker; and suffering for the sake of righteousness. Saint Joseph endured during eight years various great sufferings before to die. We find 8 again in the story of Noah’s Ark in which the deluge was commemorated by eight persons who had been saved in the ark.

This is also represented in Freemasonry as the degrees of the Royal Ark Mariners, the Noachites, and the Ark and Dove." (source)

 

Creation

"The twist Prometheus puts on the question is, 'What if the answer is in the heavens, but instead of a bearded deity, what if our creators were extraterrestrials? And, if so, who or what created them?'” (source)

This conversation continued on when Capitan Oram asked David what he believed in (response: "Creation").  Dr. Shaw clarified the question with her answer to Charlie when he mentioned she should take off her Cross with:

"Who created them?"

It seems that Peter Weyland believed David was a vessel that the Engineers could pour him into and "save" him from death.  This belief system was shattered when the Engineer hit the OFF button on his forehead.

 

Nice try though Mr. Weyland, below.

 

The Eight Immortals Symbol

"The symbol of eight immortals is considered to be an especially powerful cure because we are now in the so-called period 8 feng shui. Number eight, in general, is very lucky, as it is the number of infinity and never-ending blessings." (source)

 

Conclusion

"never-ending blessings."....well, I believe, we can gather from Prometheus and Alien: Covenant that David 8 doesn't practice Feng Shui.

Nice topic!

 

I'd think Peter Weyland would have long ago (2070's) uploaded or created an A.I version of himself. A vast server core located somewhere on Mars.

It would make sense if Peter's AI is pulling the strings...He is still seeking answers...Sending spacecraft to distant dangerous worlds....with little concern over the safety of their crews...Just bring back alien specimens at all costs.

Cool to have David meet his father's AI.

Peter(AI) "I was a good father?"

David "The best"

Certainly i think while its interesting to look at some Significance's of the Number 8, for me the Main Focus in regards to this TOPIC is that indeed the Number 8 on its side does represent Infinity which in itself represents something that Continuous, Endless and so it connects with something that Lasts Forever and so  it connects to Immortality to a degree.

As mentioned in the TOPIC what we see is that both David and Ripley carry the  Number 8 as seen in the Franchise, David 8 in regards to Weylands Personal Synthetic  and Ripley 8 in regards to a Xenomorph/Human Hybrid.

Both are the Closest we see to Immortal in the Franchise.

Regarding Peter Weyland then i think we can Speculate that he would have been interested in and attempted to Discover ways to Extend is Life.  We can only Speculate to what kind of Research had had made on this Subject.

He was coming to the END of his Life and the Potential that Dr Shaw and Holloway had discovered where we could MEET our MAKERS was kind of the Last Throw of the Dice for Weyland.

The Engineers were a Superior Species for Certain, we can Assume of Hundreds of Thousands of Years or Longer they had attempted and maybe made Scientific Advancements to Prolong their Lives.  To what END they had achieved this we surely can only Speculate, but we have to WONDER exactly what Weyland was Expecting  some Magical Elixir of Life?  Some kind of Genetic Engineering to CHANGE the Dying Carcass of Mr Weyland?

Surely they cant GRANT him Entry to some Eternal Spiritual Pane of Existence?  I am not sure the Franchise would have expanded to give us a ACTUAL real Spiritual Soul and Realm.

You mention about maybe Weyland wanted them to Transfer his Soul into David..... i am not so sure they could do that, or maybe this is what Weyland had HOPED for.

I would NOT rule out this being something that Weyland had HOPED for himself as far as all of his WORK (or some in part).

Weyland had mentioned that David does-not have a SOUL but then what is a SOUL?

1) The determination of HOW Good/Bad a Person is, so a Person who is Kind, Empathetic and puts others First would be considered to have a GOOD SOUL.

2) Putting your Heart and Soul into something, being Very Dedicated and Passionate with a Subject, Interest or Work that you carry out.

3) The collection of Memories and Experiences that you have gained during your Life, your Consciousness and what makes you a Person, which is Shaped by Influences and Life you are Exposed to while Growing Up.

With these THREE then there is NO reason why David has NO SOUL if these are what a Soul is...  But NONE of these make you IMMORTAL.

4) Spiritual Soul that goes onto to another Pane of Eternal Existence when we DIE (for the selected few).  Well David does not really have this... NOT in the traditional sense... but does Mankind?  Weyland would surely know NOW.

However what we see with David as a A.I. means we Can-Not rule out that David has some kind of Pseudo Immortality in this sense... it really depends if we can take the David 8 Promotional Marketing as CANON and also if with Alien Covenant our David is still David 8.

For David from Alien Covenant's Prologue is the FIRST of his Kind, we have to can SAFELY ASSUME, and so this is a Established Fact, and so with Prometheus if we accept that there had been IMPROVEMENTS to the David Models over the Years, then WHY would Weyland want to take a Older In-superior Model with him as his Personal Assistant?

HOWEVER... as a A.I. we can assume that you could UPLOAD and STORE the Memories, Experiences, Emotions and Consciousness of sorts of David and Transfer this to a Improved Model, a Improved SHELL.

So this would mean that David actually could have a IMMORTAL SOUL and so could go onto a After-Life/Resurrection after his BODY has Failed.

If Weyland could Figure a way out to Transcend a Human Soul into a A.I like Dr. Will Caster had in the Movie Transcendence.... then Weyland could Transfer this to a Synthetic BODY... and he would have Conquered his Mortality... This is what i was touching upon with my Prometheus 2 Story that i abandoned in 2013 after i LOST it, Project Rook.... but while Weyland had Achieved this, the A.I Program could not Handle Emotions and eventually would TURN MAD and be a Tortured/Imperfect Soul and this is WHY he then Turned to Dr Shaw and her Chasing Gods!

Maybe some of the Tools (Synapse Restablisher, Dream Visor) from Prometheus where intended to be methods to obtain a Immortality this way?.

We see that David starts to gain Emotions and that he becomes VERY unstable in Alien Covenant.

And so indeed we could look at David as being able to Posses Immortality.  Was this the Intention of giving him the Number 8 or is this just Coincidence?

I had not noticed until now, but the 8 turned on its side to represent the infinity sign is interesting.

In Ripley's case though, clones seem to die out sooner than the original. 

To Continue....

Next we come to Ripley 8 and again was the Number 8 just a Coincidence?

We see that via the Infection of Ripley's DNA with the Xenomorph DNA, what this does with a Successful Clone of Ripley is Provide us with a Humanoid that is Enhanced in many ways over a Human, and also has some degree of Regeneration.

We can only Speculate to what LEVEL of Regeneration and to what kind of LIFE EXPECTANCY the Ripley 8 could have.  She Certainly had a SHELL that is more Superior to a Human and Hard Wearing.

What we also see is that SOMEHOW the Ripley 8 Clone has managed to gain some of Ellen Ripleys Memories and so there is some kind of  Genetic Memory Transfer and so Ripley 8 has gained some of Ripley's Soul.

How much of her Memories would eventually be gained is up for Speculation, but Discovering this would make Scientist see there is some reason for it and something to STUDY in the HOPE of being able to use it as a KEY to Total Conscious Transfer.

So again we can see that Ripley 8 is a KEY to some kind of Immortality.   The Xenomorph being the KEY to this. And so the STUDY on Ripley 8 could provide a way to Unlock Immortality.

If we look at the Xenomorph in this Context, and that its Precursor that the Engineers where Experimenting with, then MAYBE if we look at the Engineers as using this ORGANISM as a means to Enhance themselves but also GAIN some Genetic Memory Transfer and so the Xenomorph Ancestors were something the Engineers had been using to TRY and gain IMMORTALITY.

This would make a PERFECT SENSE to WHY the Engineers would be Interested and MESS ABOUT with such a Parasite and would OPEN a better reason for the Pursuit of the Xenomorph by the Company.

Than just the BASIC idea that they want them simply to DESTROY/KILL.

I think exploring such ideas are a way to expand the Franchise, to go deeper... the same would be said with the A.I Synthetics if this was Weylands Attempts to CHEAT his DEATH too.

Things could TURN some kind of Full Circle if we look into such things... For example ask yourself this.... if the USM company was after the Xenomorph as a Bio-Weapon, then what would they make of Ripley 8?

Would Ripley 8 not be a more Viable Bio-Weapon? she could be used to Unlock some kind of Immortality, but also her DNA could be used to make some Pretty Much Superior Military Personnel... but IF they eventually did this... could these Enhanced Beings REBEL and see themselves as Superior?

This is ONE theme i explore with my Parallel Alien Resurrection Movie idea.

"It would make sense if Peter's AI is pulling the strings"

Thats certainly the PLOT idea i explored with my Prometheus 2 that i worked on in 2013 ;)  and we have had Ridley Scott suggest the Future Movies will be more about A.I and so if think if the Weyland-Yutani company is RAN by A.I with Mankind not even aware (Matrix) then this would explain why Humans were sent out as Folly to obtain the Xenomorph.  But then Humans can be Selfish/Wicked SOB's too.

For a A.I then the only Benefit of a Xenomorph would be as a Weapon or a Tool to Eradicate Humans.  I think they would make Unlikely Android Pets ;)

"In Ripley's case though, clones seem to die out sooner than the original"

In terms of Real Science then Indeed Clones seem to have Shorter Life Expectancy, but we can only Speculate on Ripley 8 and i guess you could MERGE her DNA with Genetic Engineering to UNLOCK some Longer Life Expectancy.

However if we assume that she has a Limited Life Expectancy (this would be Beneficial in the USE of a Super Solider which we see with the Replicants from Blade Runner) then we could WONDER what if say a Ripley 8 has a Life Span of say 4 Years, or any Lesser Time but you would TAKE SAMPLES of he DNA every Few Weeks.

Could this Obtained DNA be used to CLONE her again and she would have the Memories Imprinted from her Last Sample of DNA?   This would in effect mean she could be Resurrected over and over MIND, BODY and SOUL.

Now lets go to the Xenomorph in Context to this Topic.

If we look prior to ALIENS then RS had the idea the Xenomorph has a Limited Life Span, and he indicated that in ALIEN the Xenomorph had done its JOB... the Egg Morph and was looking for a Place to DIE.

Its FUN to Speculate what this could indicate, if we look at Ripley 8, then WHAT IF the Xenomorph can Pass on Genetic Memory Transfer...  and if we look at this in Context to ALIEN DC alone... could the EGG MORPH contain a Organism that would contain the Xenomorphs Memories?

But that Scene may not be CANON and we have to ACCEPT what ALIENS shows us.... but the Prequels would indicate that the Origins of the Xenomorph come via some other Related Organism and Experiments the Engineers had conducted on LV-223... but i only want to look at this in Context to this TOPIC... which is IMMORTALITY.

If we Speculate the Xenomorph had came from something FAR Ancient that the Engineers had-not Created, but this Ancient Parasitic Organism also had some Genetic Memory Transfer and lets say they USE the Egg Morph to give the Organism a Resurrection before its OLD SHELL would DIE.

This would be  Organism the Engineers would be Interested in as FAR as trying to UNLOCK the KEY to Immortality... which we ULTIMATELY see a Successful Result of sorts with Ripley 8.

THIS could be a Origins we could use to INTRODUCE the Starbeast a Organism that has a Parasitic Life Cycle just as explained with O'Bannon's Orginal Idea... if these Organisms enter a Stage where before they would DIE they could EGG MORPH a  Organism so that this would then RESTART the LIFE-CYCLE and if this could PASS ON the Starbeast's Consciousness/Soul then i think such a addition would be Interesting and give GOOD REASON for the Engineers to maybe Discover and attempt to Experiment on such a Organism.

While Off Topic a little.... i think such a Origins Story would work and bring a ALIEN and Lovecraft feel back to the Story, and also give a GOOD reason for the Pursuit of the Sacred DNA of such a Ancient Beast as a KEY to Unlock Immortality.

 

double post

"A silver spacecraft entered the Sol system. It was home. Returning in time to witness the funeral of their mother, Earth.

It had returned many times in the past, five billion years previous at the evaporation of Earth's oceans event, some three billion years earlier to view the extinction of life.

After watching the death...The starship turned and dove into the red giant.

One could only handle so much immortality."

 

 

Seriously....a 100 years is a long time to live...can't imagine a billion...that's a lot of free time! Hope I'd at least get good at guitar.

 

 

"Seriously....a 100 years is a long time to live...can't imagine a billion...that's a lot of free time! Hope I'd at least get good at guitar."

Thats a Excellent Point...

As Immortality could be a CURSE... it depends on what you have to Occupy yourself if you was Immortal.

Imagine if by some Freak Occurrence you became Immortal, you Body would Regenerate, you would not Suffocate from lack of AIR or Drown..

Some Catastrophe happens to Earth and the Planet becomes like MARS... Hundreds of Thousands of Years Pass....

You are ALL ALONE...  the same applies if you was Immortal as described and you was Stranded on a Moon or Dead Planet with NOTHING... yet you can-not DIE... or if you have become some Spiritual Form... with Self Consciousness but NO BODY and you remain like this for ETERNITY.

With NOTHING to do, and being ALONE then IMMORTALITY can become a ETERNAL PRISON with NO RELEASE...

The Ultimate HELL!

With Nothing to do, and only your own thoughts to get you by, HOW LONG before Mentally you would really SUFFER?

If only you had stuff to Entertain yourself, but after Thousands of Years would you NOT be Bored?

What if you had a way to CREATE something to Occupy yourself, Companionship?

In space, no one cares what you believe in. ©

 

The only immortality is the immortality of the body.

I think that depends on how your looking at it... In REALITY then i guess there is NO real IMMORTALITY not of the kind where a Persons Soul/Spirit or Consciousness can exist once the Body has Perished.  But in such a Reality then Xenomorphs simply dont exist. However its a Unknown to what Horrors may lie out there in the Galaxy however ;)

I think Immortality does link with the Franchise to a Degree though, and the closest we had seen to this are Ripley 8 and David 8.

Now regarding the Immortality of the Body then nothing is really Truly Immortal, but somethings could be closer to some Immortality but only as FAR as increasing the Life Span/Reduce Deterioration of a Body.

For many People (who are otherwise in a Happy/Content State of Mind)  i am sure they would WELCOME any way that they could Extend their Lives.

We know this was something that Weyland had Desperately tried to achieve, and i think we could look at the Engineers as i feel some of them would have wanted to achieve this too.

This Topic was to look at ways to obtain that, especially within the Realm of Science Fiction.

On Multiple Levels i think its a Interesting Topic, even if we come down to Dr Shaw, would her Research and Findings have any EFFECT on her Faith?  A Magical Afterlife in the Spiritual Pane of Heaven.... as this is what she CHOOSES to Believe but its interesting to Speculate if she ever has doubts about this?

I think when looking at the Scope of Would-Be-Gods we could Speculate as to WHO had Created them?  It does leave the Door Open for something more Lovecraftian where there are other ways to Explore Immortality.

Here below is another reference to 8.

"We've got eight more recharge cycles to go before Origae-6?"

Alien: Covenant novelization, page 42.

 

In regards to 8, I do believe they are tying this to an attempt at Immortality by the Company.  Peter Weyland verifies this motive (at the expense of all others if need be) for his mission shortly before the end of Prometheus.

Michael Bishop developed multiple successful lines of Artificial Persons and should have looked back on his career with stoic satisfaction but had regrets in his failure to retrieve the xenomorph.  This regret below, I believe, ties to medicine that could have been developed with had they captured Ripley or the xenomorph on Fury 161. 

 

"his failure to convince Ellen Ripley of the xenomorph importance was his greatest professional regret." 

The Weyland-Yutani Report, page 139.

 

He was into it...he died during elective surgery ("an elective operation to upgrade his neural synapses.") trying to continuously improve his body.  Another way to look at it is that Michael Bishop couldn't get his mind around his failure on Fury 161 and tried to improve it to cure this.  Maybe.

 

Pharmacology

In the Weyland-Yutani Report, the COMPANY STATEMENT OF INTEREST describes the vision driving the multinational across the core systems.  "PHARMACOLOGY" is the first in a list of areas (PHARMACOLOGY, BIOENGINEERING, DEFENSE) that hold: 

"possibilities we can't yet dream of-are without limit. We have the resources, all we need is the Xenomorph."

 

The Company cites priorities and Pharmacology and Bioengineering are in the top 3...and that the Xenomorph is the way.  

 

Planet 4

That makes Planet 4 look somewhat even more like a drug trial, medicine testing.  Medicine that, of course, extends a lifespan...tending towards an attempt at Immortality.  And of course weapons testing (biological, mutagen-based).  

Thats the SPIRIT ;)

Some Great Points/Finds Ingeniero

This is the kind of stuff that intrigues me.. lets look at the Xenomorph/Black Goo in the Context of a Weapon to basically KILL!

For the Company it was always a FOLLY to obtain a Xenomorph for what Purpose?  To use as they are as a WEAPON? 

*A Parasitic Organism you cant really CONTROL

*A Parasitic Organism that could Procreate out of CONTROL.

*A Parasitic Organism that has a Instinct to Procreate/Create a HIVE and would do everything in its POWER to meet this Objective.

We saw the Marines could Match a Xenomorph at Range, and you have to Wonder would Concentrating on more Advance Weapons Technology, Bio-Engineering Super Soldiers or using Synthetics as Military Personnel.  Are these all NOT more reliable/Controllable KILLING MACHINES?

When we come to the Black Goo this is more of a ENIGMA but you have to WONDER, do the Engineers possess other Weapons/Technology that can Destroy a World?

The Black Goo seems more Efficient than the Xenomorph if you are Desperate and Want to Destroy a Target with No Consideration of the Aftermath implications?  Unless the Xenomorph has a LIMITED LIFE SPAN then it does-not make a Better Weapon than DROPPING some Black Goo!

Which brings us to the SACRIFICIAL GOO, looking at what we are shown about that Scene, can we SAFELY assume that if this Substance was Rained Down upon the Engineer rather than Consumed would it NOT have a similar Effect?

Bombing a World with Sacrificial Goo by the Thousands of Urns would surely be a GREAT Weapon... especially in terms of to CLEAN UP a World.

This is NOT to change the Subject to the Xenomorph/Black Goo as a Bio-weapon.. but it is to ASK about maybe there are other Benefits with the Xenomorph or the Experiments that lead to it..  Which means what the Engineers were doing on LV-223.

And so if there are ways to attempt to UTILIZE such Organisms for the Purpose of Genetic Enhancements, and to try and Obtain some kind of IMMORTALITY from them.

Then this would give us another way to look at WHY the Company are Interested in such a FOLLY and WHAT maybe the Engineers had been attempting to do.

And i think if we look at RIPLEY 8 then maybe this is the Ultimate Potential and maybe the Engineers were attempting Similar?